Friday, November 12, 2004

The Church Denounces War in Iraqi

When the war in Iraqi first began I was in full support of Bush’s decision to go and “protect” our country, but as I found out more and more information concerning the war I am beginning to see a side that has previously been invisible to me. From what I understand every mainline church has spoken against Bush’s decision to go to war according to the Orlando Sentinel.

There has been a tremendous loss of life according to the Lancet Medical Journal which concluded that 100,000 civilians died in the US-led invasion of Iraq, most of which were woman and children. Even worse the U.S. military refuses all responsibility. Gen. Tommy Franks could not have been more direct: "We don’t do body counts."

After doing some reading I discovered that Fuller Theological Seminary professors have signed a statement speaking of the "grave moral crisis” in America, and are signing a statement opposing President Bush's alleged convergence of God, church and nation and what they call his "theology of war.” In Bush's 2002 State of the Union address the president labeled Iran, Iraq and North Korea the "axis of evil,” Stassen said "Calling the three nations the 'axis of evil' and refusing to acknowledge any errors that he has made, that sets up a dichotomy between righteous United States and unrighteous 'axis of evil.’ [This] leads to a crusade in which Christians think the Christian thing to do is support war-making against an allegedly unrighteous enemy.”

I also discovered that other sources say, “Iraq is no threat to the U.S.” Bishop Gumbleton describes a land that was already in great turmoil after its eight-year war with Iran (1980-88). Now, after the Gulf War (1990-1991), “once-prosperous people beg openly on the streets. Plumbing, electricity, transportation, business and employment: All the systems necessary to a modern nation are held together with baling wire and even that is in short supply.” I could hardly believe my eyes when I discovered that according to the UNICEF (United Nations), “5,000 Iraqi children a month die from diarrhea, pneumonia, breathing problems and malnutrition as a result of the economic sanctions. Iraq has been allowed to sell $5.26 billion worth of oil for food and medicine every six months under the U.N. arrangements described by Patriarch Raphael, but this does not suffice to bring the nation’s people back from the brink. Economic sanctions have cut revenues by 90 percent!”

Chuck Colson when speaking of the Yugoslavia campaign and the Church’s involvement in past wars said, "The Vietnam-era protests weren't the only time that the Church argued against its own government's use of military force. During World War II, British clergy denounced their own government's carpet bombing of German cities. And before the Gulf War, many Christians raised serious Just War concerns. It was a healthy debate.

These Christians, right or wrong, at least recognized that a Christian's first allegiance is to the City of God. Whether Caesar listens or not, we are to be the conscience of society.

So if the campaign in Yugoslavia should tragically turn into a quagmire from which the U.S. can't extricate itself--a real possibility, many fear-- the blame will lie not only at the feet of the president and his administration, but also at the feet of those Christians who said nothing."

7 comments:

Unknown said...

Interesting perspective and an interesting article. I always enjoy a healthy debate! While I can also understand your conclusion, I cannot trust your sources. Your reasons for disagreeing that the Iraq war is a "just" war seem to be ...

1) Many civilian casualties (yet to be proven)
2) The oil for food program didn't work
3) Mainline churches have spoken against it (or their leaders have)
3) Seminary professors have spoken against it.

Civilian deaths, for instance, seems to be an "unknown." While one person may say it was a civilian, the military may classify it as being a militant in street clothes. Many Iraqi's may be civilians indeed ... but civilians who are helping fuel kidnappings, bombings and other terrorist activities. Shall we spare them?

One website I found (http://iraqbodycount.net/) estimates civilian casualties at about 14,000. But this is all based on what the media has reported. Think about this: the media gets its numbers from hospitals, people on the street, or from the Iraqi government. It would be easy to count the numbers twice or misclassify the information.

I also do not agree that our military would attack innocent civilians ... and tends to not even do so on accident (compared to WWII, for instance, we protect life on a much higher level). This is based on the fact that we use extremely accurate weapons. Our record in Afghanistan and other places proves that point.

Was Iraq a threat? I'm not sure. Based on the best intelligence that they had our leaders made a decision on Iraq. Both democrats and republicans throughout our government agreed to make this hard call. Obviously innocent people die when a nation goes to war. As many of those innocent casualties as possible is avoided by our military.

It irritates me that the church has joined the liberals in attacking President Bush concerning the war in Iraq. I believe we are doing a noble thing there, in spite of those who say otherwise. The USA is pumping literally billions of dollars of investment into Iraq in a form that is not unlike our efforts in Europe after World War 2 (i.e. the Marshall Plan). It is a difficult task but we will succeed.

While in our society it is important that speak our opinions, it is also important to understand that ultimately God is in control and that it is God who governs the affairs of men. And God did both enable and allow America to work at the freedom of the Iraqi people. Not only that, but God has convinced our leaders who we rightly elected that this is a right and a just war. Can we say that we ourselves would have done better?

Read this ... food for thought ... an article I wrote about a "Tyrant worth disposing?" To quote from my article ... "It boils down to this: if we were in their shoes ... wouldn't we want America to come rescue us from such an evil government?"

http://www.stephenmayer.com/2004/10/tyrant-worth-disposing.html

Keep up the great thinking! I may have to add my response to my blog just for the fun of it ...

Unknown said...

I forgot to mention this ... I added it to my Blog later but as I was thinking about the questions you pose, the following thought came to mind ...

According to the CIA World Factbook, the population of Iraq is slightly over 25 million. If one were to add up the number of civilian casualties (which I have already put into doubt as being exaggerated by those who want the USA out of Iraq) they stand at about 14,000. This means that 1 in every 25,000 individuals in Iraq (per month, assuming we've been in Iraq at least one year) has been impacted by this war in the form of a casualty (defined as being death or injury). In case you dispute this figure, over the course of the entire year the chance that a citizen of Iraq has been caught in some sort of conflict or crossfire (by U.S. troops, that is) is .00056 or .056% (less than half of a percentage point). In other words 5.6 out of every 1,000. Still lower than the U.S. crime rate ...

Let's compare that to the crime rate of the USA. According to CNN the crime rate in the USA for 2003 (violent crimes) is 22.6 victims for every 1,000 population. And since much of what the USA is doing in Iraq right now is prosecuting violent crime ... perhaps the Iraqi's are better off than we are! Less of them are impacted by the war than are Americans impacted by violent crime.

Philip Mayer said...

I don't have any problem Stephen, with Bush going in to take out Saddam. I agree that what Bush did needed to be done. Saddam was an evil man and justice needed to be served. What we need to do now is get out of Iraqi. It is an impossible war for us to win with physical means. This is a battle for the hearts and minds of men. Most middle easterners hate us as Americans. What is it going to accomplish by staying over there and fighting like crazy in order to rebuild their country for them? There has been a tremendous loss of life. From what I understand over 1,000 of our soldiers have died and at least 15,000 Iraqis, most of them women and children. Fifteen thousand is still a huge number. Our nation was brought to its knees when 3,000 died on September 11. Are we more important some how that our loss of 3,000 was devastating, but Iraqis loss of 15,000 isn't really that many (well if you look at the numbers in just the right way)? I'm sure that there are some Iraqis who are glad to have us there in their land helping, but the majority hates us. So, let's pull out of there and let them rebuild their own country. Justice has been served to Saddam by removing him from power. Our job is finished.

Philip Mayer said...

There is a huge difference between this war in Iraqi and World War Two. The countries that we helped during WW2 wanted our help and benefited from it. The Iraqis do not want our help. A better comparison of the war in Iraqi is Vietnam, an un-winnable war. The Iraqi people hate us. How can you win if you are helping people that do not want help? There are many other countries that would love our help and where mercy efforts would be much more effective; there are other places where we would get a much bigger bang for our buck.

Yes, God is in control. He put Saddam into power and he took him out of power. God also put into power many evil kings in power over all of Israel. Does that mean that those who spoke against them (all of the prophets) were wrong? Was it wrong for Job to speak against the righteous King David when David wanted to count the troops (1 Chron. 21:3)?

It irritates me that many Christians have become blind followers of Bush because he is an outspoken Christian. When Clinton was in the White House Christian had nothing but evil to speak of him. It was, in the view of the average Christian, impossible for Clinton to do anything of value. In the same way, in the eyes of the average Christian, it is impossible for Bush to do anything wrong. Everything he does is right and good. This ignorant view of leadership is a precarious position to be.

I believe that Bush, is a godly man and is doing his best as the leader of our country. I fully support and endorse him as president, but I do blindly endorse and stand behind every decision that he makes.

Unknown said...

Interesting thoughts ... and I'd be interested in your sources. You base your ideas on the following two points ...

1) The Iraqi's hate us
2) 15,000 civilians (woman and children) have died

These are claims until you have documention or proof. Your claims above (in the article) seem to be blog entries or offbeat websites. If your sources are legitimate then I may side with you on this. I have seen articles from both liberal and conservative sources that have claimed both that Iraqi's love us and that they hate us. So I have concluded that some love us and some hate us ... but isn't that true no matter who you are?

From what I have observed I feel that those numbers are grossly inflated (none of our officials believe them, for instance). Why? Inflated for the political gain of those who want us to fail in Iraq. Abandoning the Iraqi people to the terrorists in their midst would be the same as failing.

The insurgents in Iraq are fighting because they don't want a democracy and freedom in their country. They want their nation under islamic fundamentalist control. If we leave right now, Iraq will become a spawning ground for terrorists (fundamentalist muslims). The tyrant will have won, ultimately.

I agree that the Iraqi people should be rebuilding their own nation. Our military has made that very thing an objective. Over 100,000 Iraqi police and thousands of Iraqi troops have been trained. Thousands of Iraqi's are serving in government positions across Iraq. Iraq's government is independant. But if we leave this nation devastated without stabalizing it, we will be leaving before the war has really been completed. Sure we got rid of Saddam. But have we improved the region? Have we brought true freedom to the people? Why do they kidnap and attack us in Iraq? Because they don't want the people to have free elections and freedom to choose.

Ultimately this is not Vietnam. This is a very different war with different strategies, motivations and with a different resolution. Last time we abandoned the Iraqi people thousands died (ten years ago after the first Iraq war, mass graves created by Saddam ... proven). We want to make sure that doesn't happen again and that the Iraqi people have a chance of becoming a great and civilized nation.

I believe, however, that your point is a good one. Our government does need to be held in check. I decided when I heard President Bush talk at the debates that he was a very practical person who was making points that were backed with reams of data. I trust him in this question because he seems to be making right (if sometimes unpopular) decisions. Perhaps he isn't very diplomatic, but he is down to earth and tends to make good decisions.

I, like you, disagree with some of our president's positions. But I don't think that he is involved in a conspiracy to create death in Iraq or hatred for the Americans. Perhaps, like you claim, he is misinformed. However, many Arabs admit that they hate us because we have proven that one can have a satisfying life without Allah, and without chains and with freedom of choice. What's the difference? They seem to hate everyone who believes in something other than Islam. (Their leader taught them to kill if people wouldn't willingly convert, not exactly my definition of freedom).

We freed Afgahnistan and the people there seem grateful that we successfully bought them this freedom. Iraq, while bigger, is not insurmountable. I believe our sacrifices there will be worth it in the end. We should make our best effort to speed Iraq's complete independance. Terrorists in Iraq don't want that to happen. If we leave now, it won't happen, and I have no doubt that Iraq would experience a very bloody civil war (something we have worked hard to avoid). Unfortunately we're stuck ... if we don't stay we let the Iraqi's down, and present ourselves to the world as failures. Sure let's leave Iraq, but before we do that let's make sure it ends up better than it was when we found it.

Philip Mayer said...

The claims that I have made Stephen are general and well known claims, though difficult to verify as true, have been accepted as true by most people. You may very well be correct in questioning their validity.

I do agree with you that we are in a very difficult situation in Iraqi and there are many sometimes costly decisions that need to be made.

It is true that there are many Muslims who are out to kill those who refuse to convert to Islam. Muhammad wrote “I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, maim them in every limb” (Q. 8:12). I recently began reading the Koran. It’s rather boring, but because it is said to be the fastest growing religion in the world I’ve reasoned that it is wise of me to come to some kind of an understanding of the Koran.

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